Regular season
Jordan averaged from 84/85 to 89/90
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| At age 22 in his second season, after his team went 21-43 in his absence due to a broken foot, Jordan dropped 44-6-6 on 51% against the greatest Celtics team of all time. Now imagine if he had a veteran Pippen and Rodman coached by Phil Jackson |
32.8 pts, 6.3 rpg, 6.0 apg, 51.6%
Jordan averaged from 90/91 to 97/98
30.3 pts, 6.2 rebs, 4.9 ast, 49.7%
Playoffs
From 84/85 to 89/90
35.8 ppg, 6.9 rpg, 6.7 apg on 50.5%
First 3peat, 90/91 to 92/93
33.7 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 6.6 apg 49.7%
Second 3peat, 95/96 to 97/98
31.4 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 4.1 apg 46%
So he wasn't winning in the 80s, but individually he showed he could definitely play well against them, and that was before Pippen fully developed and when he still had a team that was far from the level they would become in the 90s. Jordan also won DPOY in the 80s, and shut down Isiah Thomas in all four Bulls-Pistons playoff meetings, but didn't win DPOY in the 90s.
So if 80s competition is better why is Jordan performing slightly less against 90s teams? Now of course, stats alone don't necessarily mean Player A is better than Player B. But if an inexperienced Jordan with an even more inexperienced Pippen and with a worse team than his 90s teams is individually performing so well, what is there to suggest that a 90s Jordan couldn't still light up and beat the 80s teams?
A 22 year old Jordan in his second season averaged 44-6-6 on 51% on the 1986 Celtics after missing almost the entire season (with the team going a horrible 21-43 without him). What is there to suggest a Jordan with a prime Pippen or a veteran Rodman couldn't beat them? He was lighting up the Celtics with the likes of Woolridge and Corzine as his best help.
People seem to act like the 80s Lakers and Celtics could only be defeated by each other. What they forget is in between the Lakers 1985 and 1987 championships, they were defeated by Ralph Sampson and 2nd-year Hakeem Olajuwon. Not only were they defeated, but they barely put up a fight in losing 4-1.
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| In only his second season, Hakeem beat Magic Johnson's defending champion Lakers. He also outplayed Kareem, who made All-NBA 1st team over Hakeem and was also the reigning Finals MVP. |
Now the 86 Rockets were a much different team than the 90s Bulls, but still, a Lakers team in the middle of their dynasty with a prime Magic Johnson and the defending Finals MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar got beaten fairly easily by a Rockets team led by a sophomore Hakeem Olajuwon, and without their starting guard John Lucas who was suspended for cocaine. Those Lakers were not some invincible team.
Another thing that people forget, the defending champion Lakers in 1981 were upset in the first round by a 6 seed Rockets team, even with a prime Kareem and defending Finals MVP Magic Johnson. That Rockets team had a 40-42 record. Clearly the Lakers were far from an invincible super team like nostalgic 80s fans claim. It's not hard to believe that a prime Jordan's Bulls could have taken care of them. Even Larry Bird's Celtics were far from some supernatural force. It still took them 6 games to beat Moses Malone's 40-42 Rockets team in the Finals.
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| Even with Kareem and the reigning Finals MVP Magic Johnson, the number 1 seed Lakers lost to a 40-42 Rockets team in the first round. |
At age 25 with only 4 full seasons under his belt (missing almost all of his 2nd year) Jordan took a 6 seed Bulls team with a green Pippen all the way to the 1989 ECF. The 89 Pistons were in trouble and down 2-1 against the Bulls before coming back and winning 4-2. The Pistons went 11-0 against every team besides the Bulls in 1989.
No other team in the 1989 playoffs even beat the Pistons once. not even the former DPOY Cooper, Magic and Worthy's defending champion Lakers. Sure, Magic's injury might have been a part of that, but even when he did play great in the first 2 games of the Finals before his injury, the Lakers still couldn't win against DET. The Lakers were 11-0 in the playoffs before running into the Pistons, and they immediately went 0-2 against them even with Magic Johnson playing well.
So if that's what a 25 year old Jordan can do without a prime 91-93 Pippen or a veteran 96-98 Rodman, he'd be all right. Even in the two games that the Bulls won, Pippen did not play well at all. He had his share of rebounds and assists, but he only had 14 pts on 38% in Game 1, and he had 20% shooting in Game 3, with almost as many fouls (5) as points (7). Pippen didn't even play in the final game of the 1989 series. If a 25 year Jordan did all that with that version of Scottie Pippen, who knows how a prime Jordan with a prime Pippen would have done.
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| Jordan's 6-seed Bulls were the only team that won in the playoffs against the 1989 Pistons. Not even a prime Magic Johnson could do that. |
There is a huge misconception that the 1990/91 flagrant foul rule change weakened the Bad Boy Pistons and the league's defense. Let's take a look at the facts instead of believing baseless assumptions.
- The flagrant foul rule already existed before Jordan was in the league, as far back as the 1980/81 season. It was not a new introduction in 1990/91 as some people falsely claim.
- The Bad Boy Pistons allowed LESS ppg in 1990/91 (96.7) compared to 1989/90 (98.3)
- The Pistons still had the number 1 defense in the league in 1990/91, just like they did in their 1989/90 championship season
- Dennis Rodman still won the Defensive Player of the Year in the 1990/1991 just like he did in 1989/90.
- Michael Jordan averaged less ppg, apg, and rpg in the 1990/91 season than he did in the 1990/91 season, and only increased his FG% by 1.3%. The rule change clearly had no impact
- Jordan had his worst playoff series performances, by far, going against 90s teams. The 1993 Knicks, 1996 Sonics, and 1997 Heat held Jordan to a lower FG% than any 80s team ever did in a playoff series.
- Out of Jordan's 10 worst playoff series in terms of FG%, only 2 of them occurred in the 80s. They were against the 1985 Bucks when Jordan was a rookie, and the 1987 Celtics when Jordan was only in his 3rd season.
- After his 3rd season, there was no playoff team in the 80s that held Jordan to one of his top 10 worst playoff series in terms of FG%, including the Bad Boy Pistons.
- And the rule change did nothing to stop physical play, as the 91 Pistons still roughed up the Bulls during the 1991 ECF, the 90s Knicks beat up Jordan, and the 1997 Heat repeatedly roughed up the Bulls.
One of the criticisms against Jordan's era is the expansion teams making it easier to get a higher W-L record. But the truth is there was only 1 or 2 sub-20 teams every year from 1991/92 to 1996/97 and 0 in 1990/91. In 1997/98 there was a large number of sub-20 teams with 6, but 5 of them were in the Western Conference, so that wasn't of much benefit to Jordan coming out the East especially at playoff time. Next because more teams won 50/60 games it's expected that the lower teams will have more losses, but in spite of that the only anomaly is 98 which was caused mostly by West teams. From 91-95 there were 0 sub-20 teams in the East and only 1 in the East each year from 96-98. There was only 1 sub-20 team in the West in 94-95 when Hakeem won his 2 titles.
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| Even with the loss of Rick Mahorn due to expansion, the Pistons still won the NBA championship and had the number 1 defense in the league. Expansion did nothing to hurt the quality of championship-level teams. |
The expansion teams added during Jordan's time were the Hornets, Heat, Magic, Raptors, Wolves, and Grizzlies.
The Grizzlies and Wolves, who were in the west, and the Raptors were weak expansion teams during Jordan's day, and that was it. That does not mean it was any easier to win a championship, because the top contenders were still there.
Half of the remaining expansion teams eventually became good teams in the 90s, so the excuse about expansion weakening the league is invalid, especially after addressing the quantity of sub-20 teams above.
1. Charlotte Hornets - made 1993 and 1998 ECSF
They had Larry Johnson, Alonzo Mourning, Hersey Hawkins, and Muggsy Bogues when the Bulls beat them in 95 playoffs. Alonzo won Defensive Player of the Year in both 1999 and 2000, but somehow it's only in Jordan's era where he's' part of a watered down team.
Tim Duncan had to beat the Knicks with Larry Johnson to win the 1999 championship, but only in Jordan's era is it considered watered down when an expansion team has Larry Johnson.
The Bulls also beat the Hornets in the 98 playoffs with Glen Rice, Anthony Mason, one of the most underrated defenders of all-time, and Vlade Divac. Even past his prime, Glen Rice was a major contributor to Kobe/Shaq's first championship team in the post-Jordan era, but somehow only in Jordan's era does a prime Rice qualify as part of a watered down team. Rice also averaged a career high 26.8 ppg in 1996/97, which would be top 3 in the 2014/15 league in scoring.
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| Even some of the expansion teams eventually became top-quality |
At 34 years old in 2001, Anthony Mason replaced an injured Alonzo Mourning in Miami for one season. Thanks in part to the emergence of Bruce Bowen on the perimeter, Mason lead the Heat from the number 4 defense in the league with Alonzo to the number 2 defense in the league without him. He was such a big defensive impact in 2001, even at 34 years old, but somehow a prime Mason on the Hornets is part of a watered down era?
2. Miami Heat - made 1997 ECF with 61 wins
When the Bulls beat them in the 92 playoffs they had Glen Rice, who we already saw was a big contributor of the 2000s Lakers team, and Steve Smith, who was a big contributer of the Blazers team that nearly finished the 2000 Lakers.
When the Bulls beat the Heat in the 96 and 97 playoffs, they had Alonzo Mourning and Tim Hardaway - definitely not a watered down team, especially considering they had the number 5 and number 3 defense in the league for both of those seasons. And in 1996, the Heat were 17-11 after acquiring Tim Hardaway, a 49/50-win pace. On top of that, Mourning continued to be a top defender even in the 2000s. Even after Jordan retired, the Heat continued to have a top 5 defense all the way to 2003.
3. Orlando Magic - made 1995 Finals and won 60 games in 1996 with Shaq out 28 games, and made the 1996 ECF
This is the Orlando Magic team that had the same Shaq that dominated the 2000s, and the Magic made it to the 95 Finals with a pre-injury Penny Hardaway as well. That team was so good, even when Shaq missed 28 games due to injury in 96, they still ended up with a 60-22 record. But of course when the Bulls swept them in the ECF they are only a watered down team. There are those who say that Horace Grant's injury was the reason the Bulls beat the Magic in 1996, but we'll take a detailed look at that later on, when we look at Jordan's supposedly "weak" competition in the playoffs.
If expansion teams ended up becoming legit playoff teams and even real contenders like the Magic, it's foolish to disregard the entire 90s as an easy era simply because a few low-tier teams were added at the bottom of the league, some of which ended up becoming legit teams anyway.
From 89/90 to 98/99, there were 117 teams with losing records in the 90s. There were 108 losing teams from 79/80 to 88/89 in the 80s decade, only 9 less than the 90s. However, there were less teams for most of the 80s compared to the 90s. Two new teams were added in 87/88 and 88/89 and then two more in 95/96, so the 90s era had a notable increase in teams, but only 9 more teams with losing records. So the already small difference in losing teams between the 80s and 90s decades is made even more negligible after considering this. And From 99/00 to 08/09, there were 129 teams with losing records, and only one new team (Bobcats who became the Pelicans) was added, so it's not because there were more teams that more of them had losing records in the 2000s era.
More
- Looking at how the Jordan Era players had an easier time in the modern era
- Looking at how a 38-40 year old Jordan himself schooled the 2000s defenders
SECTION 3 - Jordan's "Weak" Defensive Competition Compared to Lebron/Kobe's "Advanced" Competition
- Proving the vast superiority of individual defenders of Jordan's era compared to the 2000s
- Destroying the myth that Jordan never played zone defense
- Proof that 80s/90s players would still have success guarding 2000s players without the 80s/90s rules
- Looking at how Jordan did against the 80s teams and why expansion did not make it easier to win championships
- Proof that Jordan's Competition was 80s-quality and far better than the 2000s era
- Looking at the truth of how the Bulls did without Jordan, and how other great teams did without their stars.
- Did Jordan really get any more special treatment than other superstars? Nope.
- Exposing the myths behind the great, but misunderstood, Wilt Chamberlain
- Looking at how Lebron got locked down by defenders of the 2000s era and comparing them to the vastly superior 80s/90s
- Destroying one of the media's biggest misconceptions regarding Lebron's solid but vastly overrated defense
- Lebron fans think no player in history could succeed if their teammates don't step up, and that Lebron is the only one who has carried a team on his back. Is that really the case?
- The real Jordan vs Lebron comparison
- The real Jordan vs Kobe comparison
- Kareem is great, but he is not even the greatest center of all-time, let alone the greatest of all-time.
- The full context behind Jordan's struggles without Pippen
- A look at how Jordan turned the Wizards around before his knee injury caught up to him
- Looking at Jordan's defensive impact in detail, both as a team player and 1 on 1 defender
- Looking at the strong evidence supporting that Jordan would have achieved more than what LeBron has in Cleveland and Miami
SECTION 21 - Hakeem Olajuwon: The Greatest Center of All-Time
- Hakeem Olajuwon is the best center of all-time, and there is strong evidence to prove it
SECTION 22 - Chris Paul: The Most Overrated Point Guard Of All-Time
- Chris Paul is an extremely overrated playoff performer and defender, and isn't even a top 5 PG of his own era, let alone all-time
SECTION 23 - Kevin Johnson: The Most Underrated Point Guard Of All-Time
- Kevin Johnson is an extremely underrated and under-appreciated point guard, who should have been a first-ballot Hall of Famer and considered a top-10 point guard of all-time
SECTION 24 - The Three Greatest Playoff Runs of All-Time
- Analyzing the three greatest individual playoff runs in NBA history
SECTION 25 - The Worst Finals Performances of All-Time
- Analyzing the worst performances in NBA Finals history
SECTION 26 - Jordan vs Russell
- Comparing the two players who won the most championships as the best player on their team
SECTION 27 - The Five Greatest Coaches of All-Time
- Taking a look at the greatest coaches in NBA history
SECTION 28 - The Least Deserving Finals MVPs of All-Time
- Taking a look at the players who least deserved to win their Finals MVPs
SECTION 29 - Refuting 10 Myths About Michael Jordan
- Refuting certain myths about Jordan, as well as abridging of some of the main points in earlier sections for easier reference.
SECTION 30 - The 20 Greatest Conference Finals Runs of All-Time
- Ranking the 20 greatest playoff runs in which a player played 3 rounds before losing prior to the NBA Finals
SECTION 31 - The 1970s: The Weakest Decade of the NBA's Post-Infancy
- Why the 1970s was the weakest decade of any era from 1960-present
SECTION 32 - The 10 Worst Supporting Casts on NBA Finals Teams (1960-Present)
- Examining the worst supporting casts on teams that reached the NBA Finals
SECTION 33 - The 10 Greatest Rookie Playoff Runs of All-Time
- The most impressive playoff runs in which rookies led their team to at least one series win
SECTION 21 - Hakeem Olajuwon: The Greatest Center of All-Time
- Hakeem Olajuwon is the best center of all-time, and there is strong evidence to prove it
SECTION 22 - Chris Paul: The Most Overrated Point Guard Of All-Time
- Chris Paul is an extremely overrated playoff performer and defender, and isn't even a top 5 PG of his own era, let alone all-time
SECTION 23 - Kevin Johnson: The Most Underrated Point Guard Of All-Time
- Kevin Johnson is an extremely underrated and under-appreciated point guard, who should have been a first-ballot Hall of Famer and considered a top-10 point guard of all-time
SECTION 24 - The Three Greatest Playoff Runs of All-Time
- Analyzing the three greatest individual playoff runs in NBA history
SECTION 25 - The Worst Finals Performances of All-Time
- Analyzing the worst performances in NBA Finals history
SECTION 26 - Jordan vs Russell
- Comparing the two players who won the most championships as the best player on their team
SECTION 27 - The Five Greatest Coaches of All-Time
- Taking a look at the greatest coaches in NBA history
SECTION 28 - The Least Deserving Finals MVPs of All-Time
- Taking a look at the players who least deserved to win their Finals MVPs
SECTION 29 - Refuting 10 Myths About Michael Jordan
- Refuting certain myths about Jordan, as well as abridging of some of the main points in earlier sections for easier reference.
SECTION 30 - The 20 Greatest Conference Finals Runs of All-Time
- Ranking the 20 greatest playoff runs in which a player played 3 rounds before losing prior to the NBA Finals
SECTION 31 - The 1970s: The Weakest Decade of the NBA's Post-Infancy
- Why the 1970s was the weakest decade of any era from 1960-present
SECTION 32 - The 10 Worst Supporting Casts on NBA Finals Teams (1960-Present)
- Examining the worst supporting casts on teams that reached the NBA Finals
SECTION 33 - The 10 Greatest Rookie Playoff Runs of All-Time
- The most impressive playoff runs in which rookies led their team to at least one series win
Exactly. If inexperience and coming back from injury MJ in 1986 scorched the great 1986 Celtics for all those points with bums like Orlando Woolridge and Dave Corzine as his running mates...then a better MJ in 1996 with much better teammates would handle the 1986 Celtics for sure.
ReplyDeleteHey man I do not know if this is the right section for it but somewhere in this document you posted about Shawn Kemp in his prime (1996 season) and how he would have been a hall of famer if not for his weight and drug problems in 2000s. Kemp next to MJ was best player in 1996 FINALS and was not too far from MJ. Kemp at his peak played like maybe one of the greatest PFs ever. Imagine a peak Kemp going against Lebron. I would take Kemp I kid you not.
ReplyDelete"and only one new team (Bobcats who became the Pelicans)"
ReplyDeleteIt should be New Orleans Hornets that became Pelicans
Charlotte Bobcats became Charlotte Hornets after New Orleans changed their name
Thank you for this section it really helps alot to understand the history of the game, also thank you for mentioning Vlade Divac for what he did for the Kings.
ReplyDelete